Rebuilding a 350, need sugg.

[jusbo]

I bought a 350 v8 small block off a friend for $100 it needs a head gasket and some TLC. I would like to build as much of it as I possibly can. What can I do for it to get the most torque/horsepower out of it? Bigger cam? To bore or not to bore, that is the question. Lemme know guys, thanks!

[67Truckin]

Boring the cylinders does nothing for power, it only trues up the out of round cylinders. Power and torque come from choice of heads, intake, camshaft and gears. Be realistic in your driving plans and talk to a cam manufacturer for their recommendations with your combination. Most people go far too big and while the chug sounds good it is impracticle for normal driving habits causing sluggish performance. :)

[loepoke]

exactly , figure out how you want to drive it , take the block , heads,crank and connecting rods to your machine shop and have it checked throughly if no cracks are found have it bored new freeze plugs cam berrings ect ...get a good set of flat top pistons have a valve job done on the the heads new seals and springs , a nice all around street cam ( just my preferance) is comp cams 268-H a nice little cam ,with a proformer rpm intake and a 650 holley makes a good combo you should be able to find a rebuild kit from summit or jegs that has all gaskets , berrings , rings , piston, timming chain , oil pump. just remember build it how you want to drive it a big cam sounds nice but it will kill you on the streets the list of parts can go on and on this is just the way I WOULD BUILD IT . the more power you have the parts tend to break.

[davidt]

take everything to the machine shop, check for cracks. then go to northernautoparts.com. they have rebuild kits for 350 for about $175 (not cheap stuff--name brand). check out edelbrock cam/intake/carb combos--excellent.

[Dimemaster]

davidt is right--The edelbrock Power Package concept rocks!

Daily driver needing economy and 87 octane, go with the Performer package. When set up right, expect 20+mpg, excellent throttle response, and solid torque and midrange. Expect 330 or so hp.

Street cruiser/stoplight racer, go with the Performer RPM package. Requires premium fuel and higher compression, plus a few thousand $$$$ in making the trans and rear compatible. 450hp. This is the absolute most you can do with 2-bolt mains.

[jusbo]

Sweet, I took some pics of this gem, I will post them so you guys can see what im up against and maybe lend a hand. I will be driving quite a bit, to/from school (25min drive) and to work(10/15min) mon. wed. fri. and tue. thur. fri. This is probably un realistic but I want the best gas milage possible, but also give the yuppie teens/kids in their new mustang a run for their money. Dimemaster thank you for your "menu" style optioning it rocks.

[jusbo]

Errr......AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH! I got the shaft...I looked up the casting numbers (14016383) and it is NOT a 350 but a 305. I got pics of it up, look at them on my truck gallery.

[Dimemaster]

Well, you cold resell and keep looking for a 350, or find the guy who sold it to you and demand your money back. :angry:

The 305 is still I decent engine, but dollar for dollar it doesn't have the 350's performance potential. I wouldn't hesitate to use it for a daily driver. In fact, I built a de-stroked 305 (now a 268) for my daughter's Blazer. It will romp any stock longblock 4.3 even with bolt-ons, and returns 20+mpg. It could easily handle a 75 shot, too, which would put well over 300hp on the ground. Do a search for "Yesenia's 268" and follow that build-up. It's a Performer roller cam and kit, Air Gap intake, and ProFlo EFI, but you could also use a 600 CFM Performer carb and get similar results. I did use a cleaned up set of Vortec 305 heads, not the Performer heads as originally planned.

Building that 305 for max efficiency and real-world drivability will not be disappointing. You'll have a 200,000 mile engine life with just fluid and filter changes, spark plugs, wires, rotors, and caps, good gas mileage so you can afford to drive it, and better performance than 95% of the vehicles on the road. It will last you all the way through college, until you can afford a 2nd S10 for a real hot rod.

[350whitedime]

the 305 is a good engine that if set up correctly can run with good 350's. i had a friend in high school with a regular cab short-bed 305 that would run circles around my 350 extended cab. the fact that his was a manual and mine an auto :( didn't hurt him any. i noticed you have a 2.5 with the 5-speed your original trans can be used if you build a mild 305. the tranny was said to withstand 300hp and 300lb of torque but i wouldn't want to test it so figure on changing that tranny.

[Dimemaster]

350whitedime is right about the trans. You have a T5. That's what I used behind Yesenia's 268. I had the stock trans rebuilt with a different overdrive ratio and some stronger parts. A good transmission shop can set you right up with a solid rebuild with the new gears and performance upgrades for about $700.

[jusbo]

that is great to know about the tranny. My exsisting trans needs some love anyway....it's using clucth fluid like crazy and I can actually feel the throwout bearing through my clutch pedal. The bolt pattern isn't the same is it?

How do you guys feel about Vortec heads? The $299 ones from summitracing.com I've heard and read some good stuff about them.

[Dimemaster]

Vortec heads are the best deal on iron out there.

[bonecrushins10]

vortec heads , 245 bucks a apeice at jegs , vic elderbrock mainfold , this list is ideas to make real power

demon carb , lunati cam, stroker crank to make it a 377 , this list is to inhance ones ener power


vortec heads - 245
elde mani - 215
head parts - 200
cam shaft - 130
________________
735 $

super chevy made a enigine like this an made 450 horsepower being bored .30 with the vortec heads an a bad cam that would be slugish

an you want a daily driver so if you really wantem to see tail light get a nice but not to aggersive cam , an get a stroker kit ,

just stroking it gives you 17 cubic inches , with out the expensive 5 extra cubic inches

stroker cranks are around 300-400 $

get on super chevy an look for the motor page

i saw it in 7 top budget power projects

vortec heads with there 23* burn fast design are the best for flow an combustion

so

also they pumped up the compersion something u might an might not want 2 do

[bonecrushins10]

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10002&storeId=10001&categoryId=19715&parentCategoryId=10187&langId=-1


basic dealership price

[Dimemaster]

Those are bare heads. They are $300 worth of parts and machine work from being ready to use.

You can't just bolt in a stroker crank without changing pistons and/or rods. You'll shove a piston into the head and something will break.

An Edelbrock Victor manifold is way to much for a street 305. You'll need a radical cam, 10:1 compression, big carb, 4-bolt mains, steel crank and rods, and a host of other changes to match. Then, your T5 will need to be replaced with a stronger trans. You'll also have overheating problems, and you'll spend a fortune trying to get traction. On top of all that, your engine life and fuel efficiency will go down the tubes because you'll be turning 5,000-7,000 to make power. Yes, it can be done, but why? For the same money, you can have another 50hp with a 350. If this is your only vehicle and you must use it for driving every day, you will NOT be happy.

[jusbo]

Its a 305. I was going to go with a bigger/new cam anyway, not overkill trying to find a happy medium on all fronts.
This (http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=partdetail.asp&part=NAL-12558060) head (Vortec) comes with the valves and springs and stuff. Thats what I would want.
I am going to take the block to a local shop around here to have them check it all out to make sure it's going to make it...

Just so all of you know, I have never ever ever attempted stuff like this before, so if there is any good sites/reading material that is aimed directly at 305 engines would be SO freakin' sweet.

[jusbo]

I take every chance I get to work on this thing, mainly tearing it down
so far I have removed all pumps, the headers(still pictured) and the exhaust.
Water came out of a few spark plugs I took out :confused: Oh well I will keep you guys posted as I progress.

[Dimemaster]

Water out of the spark plugs? Not good. Most likely rain, cracked head, or bad gasket. Have the block magnafluxed to check for cracks, just to be sure.

I think those might be the same heads I used on Yesenia's 268. Good choice. They work extremely well with the Edelbrock Performer power package (intake, cam, 600cfm carb) and 1 1/2-inch primary headers. If you choose the roller cam Performer and go with 1 5/8-inch primaries, you'll gain 20-25hp on top with no loss of throttle response or low speed torque. You'll be knocking really hard on that 1hp/1ci ratio, dependable as a rock, and low to mid 20mpg on the highway if you modify the overdrive ratio in your trans when you rebuild it.

Just don't get in a rush to finish the engine, which is really what dooms most first builds. Most first-time builders get anxious and buy cheap parts so they can get the job done faster. Use good parts, even if it means waiting a couple paychecks to buy them. You won't regret it in the long run.

In your situation, it might be a good idea to discuss with your machinist how much cut will be needed on the crank journals and cylinder bores when you take the parts in. Tell him you want something like the Federal Mogul engine rebuild kit with hypereutectic pistons. He might like TRW kits, but that is a good brand, too. Most machinists will match or beat Summit prices if you let them do all the machine work and provide the rebuild kit. When I carried Yesenia's block and heads in, my machinist and I sat down and he itemized all the long block parts and prices. When we compared his list to my list from Summit, he was higher on some things, lower on others, but ended up only $3 more overall. He knocked $3 of without having to be asked. I feel he would take more care on my machine work knowing he has total responsibility for parts and clearances.

They'll need the pistons, crank, and rods to fit everything together before they start machining, anyway. Be sure to have the machine shop fit the pistons to the rods because that is something you really don't want to try to do at home.

Your block prep should include:
cleaning (usually sonic cleaning)
magnafluxed
align hone
decks checked
bored with plates
cam bearings installed
freeze plugs installed
all dowels installed
threads chased
flushed and cleaned

Crank should be:
Checked for straightness
Magnafluxed
journals ground
oil holes chamfered
balanced
cleaned

Rods should be:
checked for straightness
Magnafluxed
oil holes chamfered
balanced total mass and end-to-end
bolts replaced
cleaned
pistons pressed on

These are all tasks either you can't do at home or they are just a pain in the butt and the machinist has the tools to do the job right and easily.

You won't need aftermarket main, rod, or head bolts at you performance level, just stock replacements will be fine.

Your heads will be new, so no additional work will need to be done.

Chilton's manual for the vehicle your engine came from will provide all the info you need to build your engine. I would suggest ZipLoc bags for your engine hardware, labeled with a Sharpie as to what the bolts are for (oil pan, left head, timing cover, etc.). Line the bags up in the order each component is removed from the engine.

If money is an issue, refrain from the temptation to buy chrome or aluminum doodads. Chrome don't go. Spend your money on better quality internal components instead of bling. This is your daily driver, not a show truck. You'll quickly get tired of keeping all that chrome cleaned and after 30,000 miles it's going to be dirty, anyway. Just degrease your old stuff, sand, and repaint the outside. I don't like paint inside an engine. It isn't necessary to prevent rust since the inside is bathed in oil, anyway, and loose paint can reek havoc on the oil system.

[jusbo]

I am TOTALLY BLOWN AWAY, Dimemaster! Thank you for sharing your time and knowledge! I have printed that list out.
I was comparing and stuff, and I am probably going to go ahead and use the same heads if they are ok. I will have them shaved .040 if possible. The local engine builder (Poteats) will...(i called and got a quote) do a valve job, clean and polish the heads, shave, check them over(the heads), and inspect the engine block itself. Now I don't know if that will include the pistons or what I'll see when I get it there. He will do all of that for $250. Of course I have to take the engine slap apart and bring it down there or he will charge extra. I don't know a machinist other than my dad who does motors, so its kind of like making new friends at a new school. I have attached more (yes more, lol) pics of the tear down progress. I should have the heads off by the end of this Sunday....
PS, how do you take Valve Springs off?..and the head for that matter....(i know the obvious)

[big dave]

Don't worry about taking the heads apart--the guy who does the valve job will do that. Back off the rocker arm nuts till they're almost off, then roate the rocker arms out of the way so you can pull the pushrods out. Make a box or something to organize the pushrods--they need to go back into the same spot they came out of. Then you just unbolt the head bolts (don't forget the row of bolts below the exhaust ports). Basically take off every bolt that your 5/8" socket will fit on. Give the head a couple of whacks with a dead blow hammer and see if it will lift off. If not, stick a tire tool or other pry bar into one of the intake ports and GENTLY pry up on the head. It will pop loose and you can take it off. Repeat for the other head.

[big dave]

17 head bolts per side

[Dimemaster]

That rather long list of machine work is the reason I wave the BS flag at people who claim they can rebuild a 350 for $169. The machine work alone costs 4-5 times that.

Don't go nuts shaving the head. You'll muck up the intake manifold alignment. With the stock heads you won't want to go up too much on compression either, especially if you don't want to end up buying premium gas. Did I mention the valve-to-piston clearance issues.

Deck the block and shave the heads only to true the surfaces. If you are doing a race build, get compression with new pistons.

[jusbo]

I believe I am under estamating the stock power this 305 will have. I can't make my mind up about what to build...everyone wants a happy medium, I am no exception. BUT I do hold contempt for Mitsubishi Eclipse racers. :D
No you didn't mention ummm..those issues. .040 would be too much for the stock heads?

[larryv8s10]

The bell housing wold have to be changed.

I was going to destroke a 355 with a 283 crank.
I would have to use main journal spacers for the crank to fit.
That just might make a "SCREAMER"though.
That was after I was planning on building a 383 stroker, but I WAS planning on putting it in a FIERO.
Figured I didn't need all the torque of a 383, thats why I decided to destroke it instead.
Now I'm just going to do a 350 TPI setup in front of a Muncie M-21 in my '95 s-10.

You could get a 4.3 (262) small block v-8 from a '94 caprice and bore it to a 4" bore.
You could destroke the 350 with the 262 crank and make a "SCREAMER".
It would be close to a 302, if the 262 crank is a 3" stroke.

What ever you deside, good luck.

[Dimemaster]

Forget all this noise about short stroke engines. The only reason to EVER choose less displacement than you already have for a performance engine is because you want to race a class requiring a certain maximum displacement. All else being equal, a short stroke engine and a long stroke engine will make about the same horsepower. The difference will be the long stroke engine makes horsepower at a lower rpm, which means it makes MORE torque. Same horsepower, more torque. The long stroke engine wins. Over-simplified, the airflow potential of the head determines horsepower, but the displacement determines rpm, and therefore, torque.

Putting a 283 crank in a 350 block will not make a SCREAMER. It will make a hand grenade. You'll need a forged crank and rods to live at the rpm your new 302 will turn. Chevy actually built this engine for the '67-'69 Z28. The only reason the engine was built and sold was so it could be amalgamated for Trans Am racing, which limited displacement to 5 liters. The 302 actually made about 25 lbs/ft of torque LESS than the otherwise identical 327, and about 48 lbs/ft of torque LESS than the otherwise identical 350. By the way, some of the early 327 2-bolt blocks had the small crank journals, and the 283 crank drops in.

Before anyone goes off on me about Yesenia's 268 (a destroked 305) remember that it was NOT intended to be a performance engine. Yesenia's 268 was intended to be economical and dependable.

[junky2]

A little info. from the notes section at mortec.com


If you are building a small journal 283 motor, keep in mind that early 283 blocks used forged cranks with small diameter counterweights. Later in the 1960's some 283 cranks had larger diameter counterweights which required that the block be factory relieved in the webbing between the bottoms of the cylinder barrels. You can see the extra machining done by flipping the block over and looking for semi-circular reliefs. Early blocks don't have this machining and look flat across between the cylinder barrels. If you try to put a 60's 283 3" stroke crank into an early 50's 283 block, it may fit the main journal sadddle surfaces, but the counterweights may hit the block webbing and/or the bottom of the cylinder barrels.

[jusbo]

305 Update...
Took the starter off
Dropped the oil pan
Took the Oil pump off...or at least the little pancake think and the thing on top of it
Kept the valve springs on took the heads off
Took the front pulley off
Pulled the Harmonic Balancer
I will post some pictures.

Question Time:
Q: Would a supercharger be too much for this 2 bolt main 305?
Q: How much would be an acceptable amount to shave the stock heads?

Magna flux is overkill I found out....a nice acid bath would do just nice.

And I will still hold contempt for Eclipse racers.

[Dimemaster]

Question Time:
Q: Would a supercharger be too much for this 2 bolt main 305?
Q: How much would be an acceptable amount to shave the stock heads?

Magna flux is overkill I found out....a nice acid bath would do just nice.

And I will still hold contempt for Eclipse racers.

You're a student, this is your first engine, and you probably don't have an extra $3500 for a supercharger. Get real.

A 305 is a P. O. S. for maximum performance. The geometry of the reciprocationg assembly is horrible. If you want a supercharger, build a 383, it's cheaper than building a 305 that will handle pressure.

Shave the stock heads just enough to true the surfaces for a good gasket seal. If you try to shve too much you'll have too run premium gas, and if you run a cam to match you'll have to port the heads to match the cam, etc., etc., etc., until the engine is a hand grenade.

Remember, the biggest mistake a newbie makes is trying to get too much power for nothing. The result is ALWAYS a P. O. S. engine that does not run well. Choose a package deal intake/carb/cam/lifters/valve springs from Edelbrock or Holley, and STICK WITH THE RECOMMENDATIONS AS FAR AS COMPRESSION AND EXHAUST. If you do not follow instructions, you'll end up with a P. O. S. because all the parts will be optimized for different power curves and they won't work well together.

It's your first engine. It's a 305. Build a nice little street engine and get some experience. Then start shopping for parts for your import eater.

[Dimemaster]

P. S., Acid bath cleans the block. Magnaflux checks for cracks. Acid bath does notr check for cracks, Magnaflux does not clean the block. You had water in the combustion chambers. Better find out why before spending any money on the engine. Otherwise, you might find your new engine has a cracked block. Slim chance of that, though. If the engine came from a wreck, it probably sat outside in the rain. If not, most likely culprit would ber a head gasket, followed by a cracked head. Cracked blocks are fairly uncommon.

[jusbo]

It is from a wreck...it had a blown head gasket and it sat in the rain, for about a year.
From rebuilding this engine it is a learning experience.....but whats the point in building a 305? It is a big step up from my 2.5L...which btw, I have a question about motor mounts too, later tho'. and it will (if done right) give me a good amount of power that I can comfortably handle, with decent gas consumption. I guess the question I am asking, myself as well as you guys..mainly Dimemaster...is, what is the point of sinking money if it will not provide the desired end result?

About the Motormounts...it says ..the ummm...jagsthatrun book.. if I had the 2.8 motor mounts i'll need to buy the ones for sale off the s10v8 site...true? Can anyone clear that up?

[icemancomethe]

As a student I have an assignment for you. Make a list of everything you want to do to this engine. From boring to pistons, to heads. Everything. Then go down to an engine builder and inquire about a ready made engine that may have the power you want at a lesser price. Do your homework.

[jusbo]

Word.

[Dimemaster]

A 305 is plenty for an S10. A 350 with the same parts will make more power, but do you have a 350? Either buy one or build the 305, your choice.

It doesn't seem that you have a handle on what you want this engine to do. Do you want to A) go really fast and spend tons of money on premium fuel, maintenance, and developing the suspension to handle the power, or do you want to B) have a dependable truck for low bucks to drive to school and back? Can't have both.

If you answer A), fork over $9,000 or so for a steel crank/forged piston blown or juiced 383, $2,000 for a bell housing, clutch, and trans, $1,500 for a rear axle, $1,000 to tub the rear and install a 4-link, and $5,000 for the miscellaneous stuff like wheels and tires, radiator and fans, fuel cell, weight redistribution, etc. You'll have 600hp hand grenade that will run 10-second 1/4-miles, if you can get the chassis sorted out.

If you answer B), rebuild the bottom end stock, port match the intake and exhaust, 3-angle valve seats, and Edelbrock Performer cam, lifters, intake, carb, 1 1/2-inch primary headers, true duals, recurved BEI, etc. If you want to kill most imports from the stoplights, you'll need 4.10 gears, limited slip, 295/50R15 rear tires, and CalTrac traction bars. You'll run 13-14 second 1/4-miles once the chassis is sorted and get close to 20mpg commuting to school.

Frankly, you're making a big mistake trying to run a race engine in a daily driver. You are heading toward the same mistake 90% of newbies make with their first build--trying to make too much power with too little money. The result is a P. O. S. engine that doesn't last long, and doesn't go fast.

The engineers at Holley and Edelbrock have done all the parts matching for you. Do not try to outsmart the engineers because you don't know what the heck you are doing. The Power Package concept is well-proven, and it works, giving the builder the most bang for the buck, good power, long life, minimum maintenance, and good fuel efficiency. I've built 100s of engines over 35 years and I still build engines with package parts. It's quick and effective. Don't try to mix-and-match performance levels with your parts. It simply won't work. I'm weary of trying to convince you of this.

For a daily driver, the Performer and 87 octane level is the way to go. Since you need the truck to commute, this is the level you want. Even the stock 305 will be a substantial increase over the 2.5. A Performer package engine will be another substantial increase over the stock 305, and with a manual trans, probably more than you'll want to get stupid on the throttle with until the chassis has some tuning. Yesenia's 268 will swap ends in a heartbeat. If you want more power AFTER you get the chassis set up, look at a 75 or 100 shot.

Your V8 mounts bolt to the stock 2.8 mounts. Mike has the 2.8 mounts for under $30/pair.

[jusbo]

I hear ya Dime. Trust me, Im driving my coworkers crazy with questions too. I do not doubt you for an instant...I am just trying to convince myself of the facts at hand. Where could I score the power package that you speak of, and would hydraulic lifters and a new cam benefit my basically stock engine?

[jusbo]

...boy, do I feel like a tool. I took the ummm....I don't know the right name for these so don't flame me...the "mains" that hold the crank in, and wouldn't you know it...it smells burnt, and there is rust spots all on the bearings.....I couldn't get the pistons out because they were/are so rusted in. Man oh man....BUMM ER! Anybody in the carolina's have a 305 for sale....THAT ISN'T RUSTED TO PIECES??? Found a bunch of 350's for $300-600 but I am realizing more and more what DIMEMASTER said, for a daily driver a 305 would be the best way to go. Anyway. Tootles!

[Dimemaster]

$300 for a rebuildable 350 is a good deal. Do it. 350 rebuild parts are cheaper than 305 parts. You'll have more power, and fuel efficiency will be about the same. If you can get a 5.7 Vortec, even better!

www.edelbrock.com has all the info on the Performer package. The Performer cam and kit for your engine will definately improve power, fuel efficiency, and throttle response over stock. A Performer intake and carb will also improve everything. 1 1/2-inch primary headers and true duals will take it up another notch. If you can afford the Performer heads, there is even more to gain, but all the other pieces will work well with your stock heads. If you get a Vortec, don't bother with the Performer heads--you will not notice much of a difference in power output. The roller cam engines make better power, too.

[BadToad454]

Well if you were closer to me id give you 1 or 2 . Ive got like 4 of em. My 87 monte liked to eat 350s cause i shifted at 7 to 8 grand, always broke something. oil pump, valve springs, rods ,cam,rocker arms ,ect. Went through 4 transmissions and 2 sticks,3 rear ends. AHHHHH the life of a drag/ street car. :evil4:

[FASTS10]

the 305 with double hump heads 194 valves will be all you need...bored it about 30 thou and go from there...you can change hp also with different rod strokes...different crank shaft or somethin...make a stroker out of it or somethin...also the double hum heads if u dont know...have two hump markings on one end of the head...these have the smaller combustion chambers for higher compression...but i wouldnt recommend putting a bigblock or nothin in it because s10s with v8s have problems hooking up...too light in the rear...

[Dimemaster]

FASTS10, he doesn't have a 305 any more--he has determined that his is not rebuildable. Like many kids, he's had the opportunity to learn a valuable lesson.

He's starting over, might as well go with a 350. More power and cheaper to build than a 305. I wouldn't pass over a 350 for a 305 for any reason except ultimate V8 economy.

A stroker 305? BWAAHAAHAAHAAHAAHAAHAA!!!! Why? That makes about as much since as stroking a Yugo.

[jusbo]

FatS10.....lol....I knew you'd get flamed for that...lol....its all good tho. The carolina trader has an ad in it "S10 V8 heads, slightly modified for racing..$50" What would that do? And about what would the gas mileage be on a 350? I know we talked about a 305s gas..but now im falling on 50 more cubes. WWWWHHHHEEEEEE!!!
Ok,...Off to replace brakes and axle seals!

[Dimemaster]

Mileage would be about the same, until you put your foot in it.

[daryl]

The milage in the 305 and 350 will be about the same in reality, in fact the same if not better than a 4.3 s10 so 350 is the way to go.

[jusbo]

Dude I know!!! My girlfriends 02 Xterra with a v6 in it SUX! OF course you know how girls driver, gas on, gas off, gas on gas off, SLAMMING the breaks on just before they hit the car in front of them....and for being politically correct, thats not ALL girls, just a select few.

[Dominator06]

i hate female drivers i fear for my life when im in the car with my girlfriend